The Story of Me And Katy



We first met in the 5th grade and she was a foot taller than I. She
stayed the same height and I grew. That was when I first remember
her, but that is not really the beginning, that is prologue. We were
good friends in junior high. I had a crush on Madonna and she thought
Madonna was trampy. But that is not the beginning. I guess the
beginning was when we were sophomores.

She was my best friend along with Kyle Rush. Homecoming was a big
deal for us as sophomores and it occurred to me I could get around all
the potential rejection and anxiety by just taking my buddy Kate. She
was technically a girl, right?
I knocked on her parents front door. She came out in a red dress. I
would try to forget much of Katy, because I needed so bad to not
remember...but I never forgot that red dress.

At dinner when we were at the restaurant giving thanks, I prayed, "Oh!
and dear Jesus, along with the food thank your for Katy's red dress."
She giggled. She told me 23 years later that she never felt so
beautiful as when I prayed that prayer.

In 1987, under the light of a neon 7/11 sign, I kissed Katy Lea. And was
smitten. But I was faced with a hard choice: accept a woman who loved
me for the geeky Clark Kent I was, or run away and try to be Superman.
After less than a month I broke her heart. I always hated Peter
Zimmerman: he was so needy and nerdy and I so desperately wanted to be
the perfect strong person, a superman. So I pretended to be to SuperPete to many people at FBC,
Baylor, and Highland Baptist Church. Fools may rush in, but the
biggest fool ran away. I could not let her love me without admitting
things about who I was I did not want to face. I said things that made
no sense like "You can't be my best friend and my girlfriend." Who but
a childish fool would think that? That is what every sane adult wants in
partner.

When I broke her heart, my mother called me a jerk which was the first
time my mother commented on my dating life and was the closest to
cussing she could get.

Katy said "no one will ever love you like I do!"
I thought that was a) a mean thing to say b) not possible for a 16
year old to know.

But She did know. She knew me, heart and soul. And a part of her would always love me. "No one will love you like I do"....it rarely came to my mind, but sometimes it did.

And you know, no one ever did. No one has every loved me
like she did. I have had a knack for picking the wrong woman. My love
life has always been a tragic comedy of errors with women who betrayed
me or left me right when the chips were down. From blank to blank(names deleted cause this is the web!...) to my ex-wife, all found reasons to not to forgive or hope or persevere. I don't blame them. It has never been easy to be me and I guess it must not be easy to love me either. I
am glad for all those that stopped loving me, though. Because every broken heart was like a
northern start leading me somewhere I thought I had never been. But I
had. It was leading me back to my sweet Kate.

Katy married young and tried to forget me.

I married late and when you marry you find out what it takes to make a
marriage. you realize the difference between relationships as
distractions and relationships as journeys. that a best friend as a
wife is a gift from God. I looked back at every ship that had sailed
and though a few were wistfully thought of, one stuck out in my mind.
Kate. It was not a lightening bolt. More an intuition. I was too young
to love Kate, but I knew that she had truly loved me.

When I divorced i moved back to Texas and called Katy's mom. I heard:
"Katy is married to X and has two kids." So I did not contact her.
I went back to forgetting. I went back to re-editing my story so that
she was not important. I played up other stories, remembered other
things, other possibilities, other loves.

This summer in CPE I found my groove. Life was good in 2007, even better in
2008, and even better this fall. I have been content. I have
occasionally had rough weeks but life has been good. I found myself
this summer wishing I had someone to share it with.

Unbeknownst to me, Katy and X got a divorce. She found herself
wondering about me. She was afraid to contact me because she could not
stand to lose me twice. But her best friend said, "you need try to be
with the one man who you ever let into your soul."

Katy contacted me on Facebook. Iwas surprised. I tried not to make too
big a deal of it. I wondered if she remembered all I remembered. My
Lord, she remembered so much more.

We started talking every night the fall. I flew to Orlando when she
was on a business trip there.

Orlando was the most romantic and soul connecting weekend of my life.
I have been lonely at least a little bit for 38 years. Even when I was
married. I often wondered if anyone would understand me; cherish me;
need me; Cheer for me. And now, for the first time in my life, I am
not lonely.

God bless the broken road that brought me back to her. I have told
this story to alot of people but it takes longer to tell than read and I tend to tear up. So I
thought I would be easier for me and shorter for my friends if I just
wrote it down.

When I got married I told myself, "grownups don't feel head over heels
silly in love. they don't long to be with their beloved. I was wrong.
They do. I first said "I love you" to a woman when I was 21 and she
said it back. That did not last. now it is 18 years later and for the
first time in 18 years, I have said, "I love you" with all that
intensity I had when I was 21 (that I did not have with my ex wife)
and she told me, "Peter Eugene Zimmerman, you are the love of my life.
Everyone who is close to me knows this. I have loved you way down in my soul since I was 16
years old. In spite of anything you've said or done. In spite of
anything I've said or done. In spite of my best efforts to kill that
love. And I worked really, really hard on that for a lot of years.
I'm telling you - it cannot be done."

I have cried every day this month with tears of joy. I am glad this
semester has been a cakewalk cause my brain is in Round Rock, Tx.

thanks for reading this. it makes it easier not to have to tell it and
get all weepy....that takes energy when you are getting OLD ;)

The idea that you cannot pray is schools is a myth. Official school prayers were legal until the 60s. and guess what? they were generic, they could not be sectarian. and if one teacher or principal can pray to Jesus than another can pray to Zeus. no way. not with my kids. "public prayers" are almost always dull and non controversial. Jesus is always controversial. " I have never been anything but bored in public prayer at places like football games. and I love real prayer meetings they are awesome. JESUS SAID NOT TO PRAY IN PUBLIC BTW...real prayer is done in private or with a people who AGREE to be there, not trapped at a football game or public meeting. the very people who lack faith in Christ are the MOST annoyed by public prayer and so Christians keep them from Jesus and harden their hearts with their cheesy public prayers. in the 80s....20 years AFTER "prayer was thrown out of schools"...we had bible study, see you at the pole prayer, and I prayed with fellow students, and I legally discussed my faith with teachers who in their private time chose to talk to me about god. some administrators have wrongly suppressed STUDENT LED prayer...guess who sued FOR the RIGHT to pray? THE ACLU.

America is a democracy....50% wins. I don't believe that even 30% of Americans WILL EVER have their hearts right with Jesus..so why do I want a generic, "majority rules" weak Christianity when I know it is usually lip service? I don't want a teacher who is a Jehovah's witness praying with my kid. or a Buddhist teacher praying with my kid. keep sectarian religion out of school. because my sectarian religion is too intense, too radical, for most people who don't want to radically follow the new testament. I like my public schools. and I like my sectarian religion, I don't need a wishy washy wimpy religion brought to my kids in public schools. my parents had family bible study every night in elementary school, and my father taught me that when the STATE and CHURCH unite, the church becomes a TOOL of the STATE. as a real baptist, he knew that religious liberty is precious. if we allow the Majority religion: currently American evangelicals--the right to bring in the bible and Jesus, to school then in 40 years, could a NEW majority the right to a Koran or a satanic bible. never trust a democrat

constatine thought it would be great idea for the government to be christian and it RUINED THE CHURCH. When the church marries the majority/the state/ it always does so by turning from the gospel or denying parts of the gospel. Christians killed christians in the name of pure christianity and america was smart enough to realize that GOD gave us a free conscience. My jesus does not need to be force fed to kids through crap public prayers, football game prayers, generic religious sentiments...etc.

Weekend Test and Abortion Thoughts

This weekend I am doing a take home final. Bleh. It is not so bad. I was taking a break and jumped on facebook to read someone slamming Obama for being "pro-abortion." If he is so pro abortion how come he has two kids? Those were two possible abortions! Gruesome? Rude? yep just as rude as people saying that if you are pro-choice that you are pro abortion. if abortion is driven into illegality, women will die having illegal ones, and a lot or at least some of the churches who help mothers will no longer focus on helping mothers and babies stay healthy.

One of the best parts of the pro life movement are initiatives and community involvement that tries to help at risk mothers.


as far as the bible and abortion....

abortion is rarely mentioned in the bible. I think only twice. the first time abortion is mentioned in the bible is in exodus 21.
and it specifically SAYS it is not murder but basically manslaughter. If two men are fighting and a woman intervenes and is killed, the killer is put to death. if she is pregnant and the baby dies, then he PAID A FINE. a good thing? no, but here is abortion not being put to the same level as murder.

Old Testament law mandated the death penalty for anyone who killed another person, even if the death was unintentional (Deut. 4:41-43; Deut. 19:10).

And in Numbers 5:11 following, if a man suspects his wife is pregnant they would give her "the waters of bitterness" which would cause a miscarriage if she was pregnant.

I think abortion is always a tragedy. but it is hardly a litmus test for Christianity as far as legislation. adultery is a sin, but when that was illegal it was a terrible political weapon and usually it was pregnant women who got zapped not men.

YOU Can Still Pray in School, only the school can't pray in school.

I recently read an email forward that was basically a humorous anecdote about prayer in schools. The point of the letter was that we can't pray in schools. If one knows the background of the source of these urban legends, it is those who feel that when public prayer was taken out of school, our schools became godless.

Quite the contrary.

1) We had a weekly bible study on campus where we prayed. This was in in 80s, long after organized school prayer was banned. I preferred my charismatic and evangelical bible study to a prayer led by a liberal christian like I knew the principal to me (oh how things change.)
2) We used to pray in front of the school at the pole. Student led public prayer is fine as long as it is not organized, or endorsed by the school. I saw on facebook that this pole thing just happened again like it does every semester.
3) Jesus what not a fan of public prayer.
4) my evangelical fundamentalist grandmother was against prayer in schools. She believed the average american was a lukewarm christian, that many of them had bad doctrine, and she was savvy enough to know that if a christian prayer could be prayed than so could a prayer to satan. you can't allow just christian teachers to pray. Do you want your kids having teachers and prinicpals who have major doctrinal differences forming your children through prayer?


The idea that generic prayers before class or an assembly is just lazy spirituality. Prayer is a discipline. Prayer should be personal or COMMUNAL not public. Public prayers are frowned on by Jesus. Don't pray in places where people HAVE to be there (court, government public meeting, football games.) You are forcing other people to listen to your views. We would call that rude at a cocktail party. And the most devout non-christians are those MOST offended by public prayer, which makes public prayer a stumbling block to their coming to a relationship with the divine/Jesus.

What if a gay pastor got up at a footballgame and asked god to bless all the gay marriages and prayed that congress would pass universal healthcare? Sectarian? Yes. What if a pastor got up and prayed at a football and just asked for "godly sportsmanship." My grandfather was mennonite. His christian religion believed that sports and competition were unchristian because christians could cooperate? Disagree? Fine. But don't infringe on his strict christian beliefs with your "majority Christian" views.

in the colonies, the lukewarm and nominal christians, and some of the more moderate chrisitans were fine with public religion

It was thebaptists, and radical evangelicals that did not want a generic, watered-down form of christianity. I like to call it churchianity.


Religion is like sex and fire. It can be wonderful but it can burn you or kill you. Orthodox christians believe that what you believe is SERIOUS and requires perserverance. Public religiousity always serves the majority against the minority (even christian ones like mennonites) and it is almost always SERVIING THE STATUS QUO...

the sermon on the mount is for suckers.?
Sunday, June 21, 2009 at 7:31am


The sermon on the mount had no value to me for the first 36 years of my life.

The Christianity I learned in all the churches and books I read up until that time completely ignored and minimized the sermon on the mount. I had no need of the sermon on the mount.


Then I began to wonder why, in America, if you question someone about their "values" you can discern no difference between an agnostic liberal and a christian liberal, and you can discern no difference between an agnostic conservative and a church going christian conservative.

Why? Because the left and the right both ignore most of Jesus' actual words. Tony Campolo said, "What I learned in seminary was that Jesus never really meant what he said." Go to an American church. any church. Do they value meekness?


America hates meekness. So do most nations but like every world power, we foolishly believe in MIGHT, and power. EFFECTIVENESS. PRAGMATIC. A utilitarian view.

The wisdom of Jesus is always foolishness to those that trust in chariots, horses, dollars, tanks, guns, marketing, focus groups, branding.

I recently read a blog that said, "Have you heard of the book they like Jesus but not the church? Well for the church goer it seems to be true that "they like church but not Jesus." He said that any time he quoted Jesus directly for an ethical stance, church people called up and were pissed off. That happened to me. A chaplain's wife got mad at me when I said I was not a fan of public prayer, and when I acutally got out the bible, and read the words, she basically just got pissed. Go pray in the closet? No! Jesus was kidding! He was just saying don't be ostententious. No. He was talking about prayer in the agora. Prayer where people that may not want to hear you pray are forced to.

Christians: "We like public prayer!" Jesus: go to your closet
Christians: "we must legislate morality!" Jesus: "your sins are forgiven...oh, don't think I can do that? rise and walk." notice the man was forgiven BEFORE he repented.

Christians: "we must crush the evildoer!" Jesus: do not resist the evildoer. bless those that curse you.
Christians: "god wants you to have total victory and financial health!" Jesus: blessed are the poor/go take up your cross.

Let's get real. Christians base their theology on Paul because Paul is easy. Paul organized the deck chairs of the gospel ship, folks. He explained how the engine worked and why we should keep persevering. It was helpful, but you need the gospels as the rudder. American Christianity is based on "What Jesus does for you by dying on the cross" and ignores the rudder of the ethics of Jesus, the words of Jesus, the ways of Jesus. Reformation theology, especially Calvinism, does not need the life of Jesus just his death. American Christianity has made Jesus ONLY GOD...and not human, so that they need not attempt to try and live as meekly, forgiving, poorly, and self denying as Jesus.


most Christians seem to thing their opinions and morals should be forced on the sinners around them, even though their forced morality will not earn them heaven.

If I had a dollar for every bitchy liberal christian I know and every angry conservative christian I know, I could feed the world's poor.

I hear a lot of people saying "We pray for Obama" and that is code for "we are praying for that heathen liberal bastard."

I get it.

I tried really hard not to hate George w. Bush. It took a Quaker to show me that my hate and judgment was not helping him or me. So I prayed for George W. bush. But it was for my sake. Because I was the judgmental asshole who needed to learn to love those he despised. why did I pray for George W. bush? because my soul's well being is contingent on loving my enemies. if I don't love those that I think are fucking up the world, I am not a christian. if you don't love Osama bin laden, you are not filled with the love of Jesus. if you don't love Dick Cheney, you don't love god. if you don't love Obama, you prove you need the holy spirit. if you don't love rush Limbaugh, you are unchristlike. We must come to the place where we love our enemies as much as we love our mothers. Then we will actually be Christians. We must value meekness and the things the world despises.

The Sizes of Dreams

We dreamed of being hobbits
and we ran around in the backyard
wearing fedoras, fighting the nazis
these were our small dreams
that caught our fancy and imagination
just for awhile

But this summer I sat in a church
rural and lutheran, neither of which you are
and I saw a bigger dream unfold
sitting next to old friends
looking at you as you looked at her
not a small fleeting dream of boyhood

but the dream of a companion
for the journey
a journey that if done well is
better than being a hobbit
or Indiana Jones.

Just today I was bitching about Glenn Beck and reminding myself I should pray those who I am angry at. I was thinking about His teachings. Not him. I was not dwelling in Christ.


I read this website:

http://ajesusmanifesto.wordpress.com/


my thoughts:

the call the bring justice to the world, to bring salvation to the world, to feed the hungry, to set the captives free, to visit the prisoner (even the guilty) cannot be a social or spiritual agenda apart from the SPIRIT of CHRIST.

the gospel ABOUT Jesus (evangelical gospel ofhis death, resurrection, atonement)
and the gospel OF Jesus (social gospel sermon on the mount, kingdom of god parables, warnings against the decietfulness of wealth)

have
a) been seperated into two camps
and
b) either camp can become a set of believes and actions rather than mystical union and walk with jesus.

the gospel of jesus and the gospel about jesus must be experienced and known through Jesus.

christianity cannot be about beliefs and action alone. the good news of Jesus is Jesus. in Jesus is a spirit filled life where one can experience the fruits of the spirit and the power of koinonia, and the power to change the world.

some have said the jesus manifesto is too christocentric. it's authors point out that it is not the god manifesto or the trinity manifesto and that the father/mother and the holy spirit are important as well

"Len’s book “So Beautiful” discusses the Trinity, and my books “Reimagining Church” and “From Eternity to Here” both present an ecclesiology that’s based on a Trinitarian model. So that part of the discussion is contained in the “Manifests.”"

sincerely,

Pete

"If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions." Jules in Pulp Fiction

Religious Minority:

I just realized that I am, by virtue of my belief that the bible is full of historical and other errors, a religious minority. Sure, there are baptists, pentecostals, catholics, anglicans etc. that would agree with me, but most churches, most "christians" globally believe things like adam and eve were real people, and the idea that the there is only one theological view/ethical view presented in the bible etc.

This hit me as a went to a worship service last night. The presence of the holy spirit was palpable and as people shared their testimonies of God changing their lives, it was evidence of the resurrection still changing things. You could kind of tell which people saw the bible more literally and which ones, like one of the leaders I met, had a more postmodern view of the bible. It is usually in worship that the divide beween the postmodern progressive and the literalist seem the least divisive. until someone makes a huge blanket statement I know is patently both a) usually bad theology and b) literalistic

it really saddened me. I guess the fact that most people don't love god with their ethics does not suprise me...that is hard to do. What amazes me is how most people waste their god-given brain and the wonderful tools of the enlightenment. cause just thinking aint hard. it is the doing in life that is hard! maybe that betrays my sedentary, reflective nature. 

progressive, skeptical, postmodernist thinking is my native soil. the gospel grows in that soil just like it CAN grow in a modernist-fundemental soil, or grew in ancient world views. 

but I wish more people liked the soil of the enlightenment.

if it was not for scientists and thinkers including freud and jung, I would already be dead. let alone Andrew Fleming (an enlightenment catholic) for finding penicillin.

Micheal Dowd on Homebrewed Christianity.

Sometimes you get an idea that excites. sometimes you meet a person that excites you. I just heard the homebrewed podcast by Micheal Dowd and the person and his ideas blew me away. I am not sure I totally get all of what he was saying but I was very impressed with his marriage of science and faith where faith is not just an adjunct or science a prop.

He is the evolutionary evangelist. He stumping just as hard for evolution as he is God. in fact, his God is the force of evolution in some ways. seriously. would like to quiz him about my only sacred cow: the resurrection.

click here for instant (via the tubes of the internet) link all the way to tripp's blog on Michael

blah.

I have not blogged in awhile.

And my non blogging should probably first turn to blogging on the VIA website.


I got the game bioshock. Sweet. not as sweet as fallout 3 but very replayable.

REVISIONSIM VERSUS REFORMATION

I realized today that the difference between re-visioning and re-forming are merely bias.

If you like what is being re-done, it is reformative.

if you don't like it, it is revisionist.

I saw a friend on facebook who likes the bishop that is "against" revisionism.

seriously? VIA media, no inerrant bible or literalism, and you still choose to stick to your guns about gay marraige? where is the certainty coming from? At least catholics make sense with the magesterium and the idea that God chose the bishops?

if god don't choose the gay bishops, then surely God could strike em down? Cause if bishops really matter, and gay matters, and God lets that slide, God needs to rethink his (sic) priorities. If the bishops are just gifted christians like the rest of us, then it probably don't matter. of course, I am congregationalist so that is my bias.

School has started...somewhat. Some sort of map due on tuesday. ugg.

It is freezing here in NC. My truck is needs a new clutch and is in the shop. So I have a rental car.

Going to start contemplative prayer on sundays with the youth at FCC.

RICK WARREN


I am actually glad that Rick Warren is saying the prayer at the inauguration.

Rick Warren is not a bad guy. He, like every other inerrantist/infallibilitist, is either delusional on that topic, naive, or obstinately ignorant.

But the importance of the gospel does not depend on understanding higher critical understanding at the bible. The gospel that rick preaches has the truth in it, just a harsher, more parochial version than others.

I am glad that Obama is reaching across the aisle.

But Rick does need to turn in his baptist card. Baptist believe in seperation of church and state. They cannot deny the religious view that that some have that says that GOd is pro-gay marriage. it is a religious, not civil, issue. WHy not just whip out the koran and force women to wear hijab.

Poor Katy Perry.

I decided to see what the Christian blogosphere had to say about her new song lyrics.

She put out a christian album many years ago. You can find it reviewed in christianity today, in fact.

now she is kissing girls and liking it.

her parents are scandalized. wait! new reports minimize that take on things.

btw, her parents are evangelical pastors. with, apparently, wild pasts before finding god.

I think about how christians are worried about her promoting "the GAY" or bicuriousness and how this disapprove of her partying and very sexy clothes.

i did not read one bit about how the basic message of katy perry is that if you are really pretty and sing well, you have a better chance of getting famous if you go VERY provocative. but there is a line.

peaches and lords of acid would be examples. much more raunchy and explicit. and not at the top of the charts.

I googled katy perry and pic. the first 4 were pretty dang sexy. and not the most.

I wonder what katy perry is telling the average 17 year old girl about how to be happy in america.

we had a good discussion in the optional church history class. basically talking about church versus state. as usual the dean had some great one-liners and stories.

I need to listen to his interview on homebrewed christianity.
http://trippfuller.com/?p=405

I was called an idealist today. is it possible to be both a cynic and an idealist. probably.
http://trippfuller.com/?p=405

I do not wish to be a king. I am not anxious to be rich. I decline military command. (2.69) Tatian

Tatian sums up the known universe and it's praxis: to rule, to own, and to coerce. the paradoxical way of the kin-dom is to serve, to give, and to love. if these powers cannot prevail, it is not that we did not here Jesus correctly, but that he was wrong. And in claiming the resurrection as real, I find it hard to be persuaded that Jesus was wrongheaded in his plan to bring heaven to earth.

If your plan's success relies on social, monetary, or military power, it may win but it will never transform the human heart, where the seeds of the kin-dom flourish.

It has come to my attention that my birth in Hawaii is doubted. That I may not, indeed, be a citizen. perhaps I should produce a birth certificate on line!! no? not enough? what about multiple websites owned by 3rd parties that have it and the raised seal...no?



oh and goto beliefnet and read the blogalouge about gay marriage.

i can't get a link up. damn. it is tony jones.

been on an eating a lot binge...ugg.

this is turning into a vaguely personal blog which sucks...who wants to read that?

will be working some more on papers tonight.

Take Two
After having a night to sleep and to hear the voice of wisdom from my mom and girlfriend, I have realized I have made a classic rookie mistake and by now I should not be a rookie.

I did not realize the the phenomenon of maturity was to account for why people who "veg out" politically/morally/ethically for years are so annoying: they lack maturity.

I used to think in black and white. I was young once. I was arrogant.

I am reminded we should be glad for those who seek God.

some person from way back in high school who was never particularly religious when I was trying to save the world is now "right with God." let me give you a anthropological study from texas:

kid A tries real hard to be a jesus freak throughout high school and college. 1 out 2 realized evangelicalism has a paucity of answers..and becomes liberal or moderate or emergent.

kid B screws around....until finally they land the spouse/money/house trifecta and usually during the acquisition of those three turns back to the evangelical fold. and is also more annoying than the good people who ALWAYS stuck with Jesus and are still conservative...

after she slammed obama I posted just

www.matthew25.org

and this is the reply I got.




Sorry man...I prefer the real deal. Scripture is God-breathed and not meant to be manipulated. Sin is sin. I know that's not a part of the "conversation" you emergents like to have...but if you want to love people...you have to be prepared to tell them the Truth. You have to stand up for Jesus, even when it costs you friends. Part of standing up for Jesus is letting your heart break for what breaks His, and I've done that. I love people, and I hate sin, even my own. Obama does not believe in the same things Christians do. He believes in similar things, what Ortberg would call a "shadow mission". Very destructive things. I just can't endorse that. It's not my job to make people feel good about themselves. It's my job to be a Christ Follower, even when that means going against the rest of the world. I think giving should come from the heart, not a government mandate. I think abortion is the desecration of God's creation and of femininity. I think marraige should be left as God designed.

******
a) what a jerk to not talk to me in 20 years and then insult me
b) i thought we emergents believed the bible was inspired and that sin existed...? when did we quit?
www.matthew25.org
Source: www.matthew25.org

I wish Doug would post again on his website about the way of the master thing:

it went down that he fought about the literal placeness of hell:


http://dougpagitt.com/theology/what-did-he-just-say#comment-915

Let me break it down and play Melancthon to his Luther.

Heaven and Hell are not places. Heaven is not up there, somewhere...that would make it a big spaceship like the deathstar. Up is not up. because up from the south pole goes for a trillion light years away from the up of the north pole.

I don't know doug's belief in atonement or soteriology.

but if a good muslim dies, in my belief, based on what Luke says...
if being a "good muslim" means that he "loved the Lord (allah is just arabic word for theos or god) with all his heart soul and mind, and his neighbor as himself, he shall be saved.

paul said that if you confess jesus as your master/caesar/king and believe in your heart he rose from the dead, you shall be saved.

telling people the story of Jesus and HOW he said to live and how he saw god is the fastest way I know to find God.

but I meet people who have pyscho-socially "accepted" the dogma of christianity but I see little of Jesus in some of them.

I have felt the spirit in a godly jew. I don't know if it was the human spirit or god's spirit but I think when a human is full of wisdom/light/love they are full of God.

there is a judgment...

I do not think God will force people into something. If they want hell, they get hell. if you love wickedness and yourself rather than others as yourself...you will be in a bad way on judgement day. real bad.

does God end your existence?
do you spend eternity in the presence of God and it is painful?

i don't think it is literally a place with worms or fire.

you can't have worms that never die (eating corpses) and fire....they would fry up juicy!

is the language of jesus descriptive? literal? symbolic? or is it motivational? or simply a word picture?

there is no lake of fire. there are no streets of Gold.
but there is the glory/love/presence of God.

doug may be a universalist.
way of the master is exlcusivist.
I am inclusivist.\

i refuse to believe that the lakota sioux indians, for example, are all in hell because christians were too lazy to get to the midwest until 1700.

Posted by Thom under Christian Ethics
I do not wish to be a king. I am not anxious to be rich. I decline military command. (2.69)

from thom stark:


Also around AD160, Tatian’s is an even clearer example of the fact that Christians are now being faced with the possibility of participation in the Roman army, and are renouncing it. Moreover, according to Tatian, the desire to rule, to be rich, and to wield the sword are in some way connected, if not simply as pursuits unworthy of Christians.
http://thomstark.jesuspolitics.net/?p=263

what is up with the jesus fascists

seriously, a lot of my friends who were passionately trying to serve god from the age of 15-25 are now moderate or liberal. and the ones that are conservative still have some dignity and compassion about it. most of the time.

nut the ones who partied like it was 1999 in 1991 are now republican anti-obama anti-gay inerrantists...who are also jerks about it.

yeah, I am gonna sleep with half of america, party, get drunk, f*ck around, get divorced, finally get house/kid/spouse and BAM! I turn into sarah palin.

We are trying to begin a new faith community in Winston-Salem.

Beverly Hatcher, Linda Jones, and myself are all on board. I am suprised that more people have not jumped on board.

I sent out an email to the divlist.

anyway, I miss Tripp and Zach.

It is the crunch time. But isn't life usually crunch time?

I think I learned a lot about people from the election cycle.

I have a lot of sympathy for John Mccain. He did what I am afraid I might do. I am afraid that convinced that the other side, my enemy, will mess things up, I am willing to change my character and values in order to win.

John Mccain convinced himself that a fleeting fundraiser by Ayers made Obama dangerous.

He called Obama "that one"... I am sorry but any white person who refers to a black person other than "hey buddy" or "sir" is an idiot. which item do you want? "that one"

he could have called him "This candidate" or "This gentleman" and still sounded condesceding. This is not splitting hairs. Our character is revealed in moments like that statement.

I recently said that I refuse to believe that half of america is stupid, unpatriotic, evil, or anti-american. I have relatives that have said as much.

I refuse to believe that conservatives are stupid or evil. I do think most, not all, are underinformed, but I don't think that most of the people that voted liberal were informed either. It might be interesting to see how many votes would have swtiched if people had educated themselves dispassionately.

It has become more evident that faith plays a great role in American politics, probably more so here than in the other western democracies that the United States inspired in the last 200 years. But what role should faith play in politics? James Dunn, when asked what role faith should play in politics said, “faith should, [and I do not mean just church doctrine] but personal faith should inform the individual with lasting values that are more transcendent and permanent than any political exigency or or temporary accommodation. It should inform the individual with lasting values. Secondly it should demand greater civility and respect for all individuals who are in fact made in the image of god. The faith of all biblical believers and all abrahamic believers, both in genesis and Koran, agree that people are made in the image of God. In fact it is amazing that we can all say that people reflect god or are somehow like god but we treat people like things! It should shape how we see people. It should also warn us to basic sin which affects all humankind. We have just seen a a dramatic example in this country where economic greed trumped free market. Greed has caused a destruction of ordinary commerce in this country and it has spilled over to the whole world. Faith should alert us to the sins like the seven deadly sins.” This view allows for faith that serves as a guide while keeping in mind that others are also in the image of God and have their own faith values. Others see faith as inimical modern democracy. Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State defended this statement as a resolution in a debate which took place at the University of Virginia’s Miller Center of Public Affairs. “We have seen a religious saturated presidential primary...The only question about religion that is relevant is will your religious beliefs trump your constitutional duties?” The question seems to come down to common discourse and the role of authority. If a transcendent faith value contradicts the constitution, what would one do? JFK, jr. said that if his conscience in faith led him to a stance that meant he could not uphold the constitution he would resign. In the end, the fact is that faith always has a role in politics. “Human beings are irresitabliy religious” stated Chuck Colson in the debate. Our transcendent values will play a role. Dunn's emphasis on the image of God in all people leads one to hold these values with humility, aware that other's values from faith may contradict our own and that to coerce others through the government in matters of conscience is destructive to religious liberty.